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Melg
I have leveled and geared (or am still gearing) my hunter to raid with you guys. Once I am able to transfer my druid I will transfer her over to heal or dps. I will be raiding on my hunter in the mean time.

I have said this to a couple of people already, but I will state my opinion here again for posterity. Its unfortunate that with all the shuffling from the Exit Strategy drama that there is now drama and indecision about the direction of the raid group.

I feel that the word "casual" relates only to the amount of time spent raiding, and not to the level of commitment or effort put in whilst in the instance. The raid group as a whole just needs to voice the direction they'd like to go in. Do people want to simply experience the instance? Or do people want to kill bosses and progress. I want to progress, and I want to do it with Twelve because the environment suits me better at this stage. However, that doesn't mean I want to spend my 2 raid nights a week wiping or farting around because there are people in the raid who think "casual raiding" means you can fuck around and not do mechanics or try hard.

I don't believe anyone should feel unwelcome in Twelve Raiding or feel like they're not good enough to be part of the raid group. I have raided ultra hardcore and ultra casual in my time playing WoW and the difference in killing bosses is only a little bit of research and effort. I don't believe ilvl is as important as people think. I have seen plenty of players with 680ilvl or lower outheal or outdps players who are 700+. As long as the person can do the mechanics and pull their weight, then they should be allowed in.

With regards to funnelling gear to tanks, I agree on some levels. Its good to funnel some gear if a majority of the raid outgear your tank. But as Shrewm said, it needs to be done with lots of consideration. It is possible to have your tank outgear your dps and healers and then you are stuck. Also, we need to be sure the people being funnelled gear are sticking around long term if they are going to be taking loot off others.

As far as the rest of Hobz points, I generally agree with all of them. The points he has listed are bare minimum requirements for raiding, and spending 2 minutes to download a voice client and a couple of addons is not a big ask to ensure yourself a raid spot in the future. Everyone needs to give each other the courtesy of not wasting each others time when we only spend a few hours a week trying to kill internet dragons together. Read a strat, come prepared, its pretty sensible. We need a solid core to continue with consistent and quality raiding. We can always recruit more people, we are on a server ripe for it, but we need to have a solid core to begin with.
Matey
Although my life is fairly busy (like most of us now because you know - #adults) I am committed to tanking for the raid. I will do everything in my power to have 100% attendance, but of course things like having a baby, a wife, and a 17 year old dog could potentially cause some issues - but that is unlikely. I've always wanted to raid tank and I hope to prove that I am capable and willing.

At this stage my opinion on the direction of the raid team does not weigh heavily, but I do think that being diplomatic, respectful our leaders and each other, and considerate in regards to attendance/effort is something we can aim for. I trust Cailo as a GM who can help create harmony, and I believe that Hobz is the ideal raid leader because of his experience, skill, and commitment to the game/guild.

Another thing I would like to propose is that we use the small amount of time we have to raid efficiently. With the substantial changes to the raid team recently there could be some teething problems, but over time it would be great if we could find a balance between having a heap of fun, and fucking shit up in a timely manner.
Dragnat
Melg wrote:
I have said this to a couple of people already, but I will state my opinion here again for posterity. Its unfortunate that with all the shuffling from the Exit Strategy drama that there is now drama and indecision about the direction of the raid group.


If anything we've found our feet. We have hobz doing a good job raid leading and we've had two solid members step up to fill the tank vacuum. I think we're finally in a position that we can begin raiding with a level of stability.
DigitalDJ
Melg wrote:
I have said this to a couple of people already, but I will state my opinion here again for posterity. Its unfortunate that with all the shuffling from the Exit Strategy drama that there is now drama and indecision about the direction of the raid group.


I think you're misinterpreting this post. No drama here to be had about the direction of the raid group. If anything, we have decided on raid changes being open to discussion and mostly democratic, unlike previously. Hobs is just stating the direction in which he'd like to take the raid and opening it up for discussion.

Only drama here is Magpie shit stirring about the ES drama.
Dragnat
DigitalDJ wrote:
Only drama here is Magpie shit stirring about the ES drama.


Magpie needs to pull his head in. Atleast Enesis can carry on without stirring shit.
cailo-
Magpie was the one that wanted to push raiding and he found Exit Strategy, from that work the guild has found a new level of revival to the point we haven't seen in years. I thank him for his efforts but …. he just has to get over his hatred of Hobz. I mean can he at least explain his hatred here to us so we consider if his opinions on him are the least bit valid?
Shrewmkin
cailo- wrote:
Magpie was the one that wanted to push raiding and he found Exit Strategy, from that work the guild has found a new level of revival to the point we haven't seen in years. I thank him for his efforts but …. he just has to get over his hatred of Hobz. I mean can he at least explain his hatred here to us so we consider if his opinions on him are the least bit valid?


Magpie probably hates Hobz, cause Hobz shits on him on so many levels.
Hobz
From the feedback I have so far, seems like people want a progression raid full of boss killing utilising the little time we raid each week to it's fullest extent.

I'll progressively start to implement changes each raid, pushing more and more in the direction of a progression style raid. Don't get confused, the raid still needs to be fun, but people don't wanna be piss farting around when we need to PTFA.

For Wednesdays raid i'll be starting with a quick chat with changes we're going to make for that raid, and at the end I welcome feedback as far as peoples thoughts on concerns regarding the changes. Each week i'll make a few more changes based on the feedback I'm receiving until a nice middle ground between fun and progression is found.

For the first week:

1. Normal Archimonde will be the first boss on Wednesday, followed by the upper floor; Sunday will be a progression or farm raid depending on the gear requirements for the group to progress. Since our first pulls are still happening 15-20 minutes into the raid, if you're late or don't have your consumables, you might miss out on Archimonde, as we will be pulling right on 8pm.

2. We'll be setting in stone the changes to how gear is handled, with gear going to people who need it if our progression is being held up due to lack of gear. For now it'll just be tanks getting priority till they're viable for Mannoroth. In the future we could need to push gear in the direction of healers or dps, but as it stands this currently isn't a problem. I also want people to know their BiS gear and stat priority, if you need help with this head over to http://www.askmrrobot.com, or shoot me a message. This will help with assigning gear, I'd rather BiS trinkets and some BiS gear go to the right people if it's a minor upgrade for others. Tier will also be handled differently, giving priority to people missing bonuses or with large upgrades, over people upgrading normal to heroic, or getting their 5th piece.

3. DBM, GTFO, and an Iskar Addon (either Iskar Assist or Exorsus) as well as voice will be mandatory for all raiders. I also highly recommend Weakauras, but won't make it mandatory at this point. We have some people still having issues with Discord as well, as we still have mumble at our disposal we will hold a vote regarding which voice program people want to go ahead with. Once this has been done it's your job to get it working.

4. Rather than strict ilvl requirements, the way I will handle new people is simply trialing them on the lower floor to suss out their skill, if they're in the guild and want to start raiding with us full time, after they past muster they can start having rolls on gear. For people wanting to invite friends outside the guild there will be a strict 685ilvl requirement, we will only take them through the lower floor, and they will only receive gear that would otherwise be disenchanted.

5. I'll be hanging around on voice for 10 minutes after raid to discuss the changes that have been made, and address any concerns I have as far as progression is concerned. Consider it a debrief of sorts, you don't need to hang around if you don't want to, with the exception being if I need to discuss something with you concerning progression.

I will briefly run through everything above before we start Wednesdays raid. All these changes are being implemented to move into a more progression style raid as this seems to be what people are after. Please don't fret about the gear changes, they are guidelines rather than rules, and are always up for discussion. Keep in mind, that smart allocation of gear now, allows more gear for everyone off higher level bosses in the future.

Any questions or concerns now is your chance before I go ahead with the above for Wednesday.
Magpie
cailo- wrote:
Magpie was the one that wanted to push raiding and he found Exit Strategy, from that work the guild has found a new level of revival to the point we haven't seen in years. I thank him for his efforts but …. he just has to get over his hatred of Hobz. I mean can he at least explain his hatred here to us so we consider if his opinions on him are the least bit valid?


Thanks for that Cailo, you asked for my two cents so here it is.
I think you forgot to mention that about 5-6 months ago we were lucky to have 6 or 7 people turn up raid night(which I would organize) and most days I'd log in, we'd be lucky to see more than 2 people online. You were ready to hand GM over to just about anyone since the Moss bullshit almost ruined our guild. I kept trying to keep people to attending raids, doing dungeons or whatever. I made friends along the way through pugs including people from Exit Strategy. If it wasn't for people like me, Twelve as a guild would most likely not be raiding right now. What a short memory some people have...
Along with our recent guildies return, there have been some awesome people that I enjoy spending my time with while doing whatever we do, but there's been some fuckheads as well.
I'm not going to sugar coat anything, so I'm just going to name and shame!
A few weeks go Hobz gave us a glimpse of how much of a cunt he can be. It started with whispers to me and god know's who else constantly regarding the strats we were using.
Ok we know you've done mythic's 6 months ago(which I couldn't give a fuck about) since you reminded me several times that night thanks Hobz!
But when you decided to speak to Rose(our raid leader who I regard as a friend) like shit after I mentioned your suggestion, I thought why the fuck am I raiding with elitist wankers like this. We are a casual guild these days... It didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that you are a wanker.
The guild chat that followed with little drama queens like Dragnat adding fuel to the fire made me sick. Both of you cunts should be ashamed of yourselves!
Being a raid leader can be stressful enough without condescending cunts insisting that their strats are better and that any retard that can't handle it to be kicked... this is from someone that had been back with us for 2 weeks.
So you guys go ahead and enjoy sucking each others dicks in your happy fun raids and go ahead and hang shit on me, I COULD NOT GIVE A FUCK!
Some of us prefer 15-20 man raids these days anyway, so are much happier with our current group. We will continue to waste time talking shit, fucking around a bit, forget pots and rock up a bit late. We still manage to down a new boss every week that we raid.
Good luck with all of your rules and special thoughts guys, that sounds like shit loads of fun is about to pour into your raids! IT'S JUST A GAME!
I'd rather be in a progression group where we are all learning fights together for the first time. A group without dick heads whispering to each other questioning everything the raid leader is doing because they have been there and done that already.
I've been in this guild for over 10 years. I still love most of you idiots and to those that are friends still, I look forward to whatever the fuck the future holds.
Keyboard warriors go nuts, love Magpie.
cailo-
Thanks for your reply Magpie. I have got to get to work so I can only read the first paragraph which covers something important, I'll read the rest tonight.

I think there has been a misunderstanding about me passing the GM. I have never been ready to hand over the GM. I think maybe this misunderstand has arisen because I have said that if my life circumstances were to significantly change in which I would no longer play the game any more and I had to pass the GM to someone, in which it would of been to my top officer at the time in you. This is a common sense thing but its easy to misinterpret.

I need to say more on that but I have to go. I trust people will show Magpie respect for having the courage to explain his point of view.
Hobz
First, congrats to Magpie for having the courage to speak his mind, it must have taken 2 testicles.

That night in question where I suggested other strats caused alot of tension, and yeh I didnt feel good about it, but my level of arrogance was only caused to match Rose's level of ignorance. You messaged me (I didn't start messaging you as you claim, because frankly I didn't even know who the fuck you were) about how we shouldn't adjust strats because its just a casual guild, which I just find silly, and from what I can tell so does the majority of the raid group. Your messages of 'stfu' were a minority compared to the 4 or so people telling me Rose doesn't ever listen and she's a pain in the ass. I still went on the forums and told everyone I'd stfu next raid and until things calmed down, I'd stand stand around and listen and do whatever job was assigned to me.

Instead next raid comes, and Rose has decided to exclude 10-15 Twelvians from the raid with no notice. This was the action that caused the current split. It wasnt me being a wanker, it was Rose excluding enough of us to form our own raid and continue. I offered to be RL since I felt I should offer for having a large part to play in the whole fiasco, and the rest is history. I'm glad you stayed behind if that's what you find fun, and I'm glad Enesis did too, I harbour no resentment over that, but it doesnt mean you need to lash out at me for leading the majority of Twelvians that your beloved RL excluded from raid.

It's great you put in the time and effort to get the guild running again, and don't think people forget, because I hear it all the time when I ask people why you're so pissed at me. However, all the hard work in the world doesn't allow you to dictate how things should happen. People were unhappy with Rose, Rose caused a divide though exclusion, and people spoke with their feet.

As for the 'fun sucking' changes, these are changes in response to the feedback I've been getting on the forums and in game. I don't really care how the raid is run, just that people get input on how things play out, and that the majority of people are having fun. If people have grievances I'm asking them to talk to me rather than exclude them from raid. Sorry this isn't how you envisioned things turning out. If people prefer the raid environment that Rose is running, that's where they should raid, if that's where they're going to have the most fun.

- Hobz the Wankernator.
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