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Hobz
I don't think I should be stopping offering input either, but offering it just lead to downtime and excuses as to why what I was suggesting was irrelevant, which is hardly productive. I think a healthy raid group allows input and adjusts their strat to suit the problems they're facing.

Each time I offered input on a strat it was after several wipes from the same issue. The way my input was handled makes me think it was a waste of raid time to offer it. Rose became upset, guild chat fired up, I was recieving PMs from many people who some supported my ideas, others reminding me this is just a casual raid and to pull my head in.

Like others have mentioned there's no fun in wiping to the same issues over and over, the group burns out and people begin to wonder why they're bothering. However, I don't feel the raid is input friendly as it stands, and I don't wanna be 'that guy' that's always arguing with the raid leader over their strats.

For now, I think it's best I avoid being abrasive at all for the next week, not because I think it's the best thing for killing bosses, but because the raid can only take so much of my suggestions the way they're currently being handled. I'd rather be quiet and accepted than outspoken and hated on, no matter what it means for progression.
Matey
While I'm not currently involved in the twelve raiding scene I have some input.

I feel like cailo generally does like killing things and getting hectic purps, but he is more concerned with harmony and fun. On the other hand some people want that AND a well performing raid team. Raid time is limited, use that time to get through as much content as possible. I'm not sure if this balance can exist anymore.

A decision basically has to be made. Raid is fun happy time and get some purps, or raid time is business time, clear content, potential butt hurt.

I'd also be listening to the guy who dedicated is life to wow and have seen mythic.
Hanlol
I don't really agree with happy or hardcore. I think there is a nice medium we can find.

Stricter starting times and making sure people actually have flasks and shit on is a good idea. Feel free to get that addon Dig! Or maybe Sugar can do it because she's an officer. I might get it as well.

Regardless of this threads intentions, I think it's ended up being a really positive one. It's great to see where people stand with our current raid status, and it's really good to see people offering suggestions.
Hobz
Hanlol wrote:
I don't really agree with happy or hardcore.

That all depends on how you define those terms. What is hardcore for me, and what is hardcore for you, or someone else, are all going to be different. It'd probably be beneficial if we can come to equal grounds on what is expected in raid to make everyone happy.

For me, I love good banter and mucking around, I love an environment where everyone is heard and input is appreciated (to a point). I love being told I'm wrong or that I can do better, it gives me an opportunity to up my game. I love teaching and helping others in the same vein. When trash is done and we have a boss staring down on us, I love to quit the bullshit and go to business neutering his ass. I love a raid that starts on time, where everyone is prepared and ready for trash at 8pm sharp.

None of this is hardcore for me, and all of it makes a raid more enjoyable, but others may differ. However, the statement "we're not a hardcore raid" doesn't carry much value in its own right.
Last edited by Hobz on Mar 2nd, 2016, 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hanlol
I don't think that's hardcore. I think that's a great way to look at raids and I agree with what you've said. Fuck around time on trash, and focus time on the boss! I was disagreeing with Matey saying we have a decision to make, because I think there is a medium, and what you've just said is a great way to look at it.

In the last few raids we've had too much time where nothing is happening and I know a lot of people find it frustrating.
Hanlol
What do you think about all the other stuff Cailo? I would love for there to be a clear decisive answer as to what we're going to do about these issues. Not the ones from the other night, but the ones that sugar/dig/Hobz and I mentioned?
cailo-
Hanlol wrote:
What do you think about all the other stuff Cailo? I would love for there to be a clear decisive answer as to what we're going to do about these issues. Not the ones from the other night, but the ones that sugar/dig/Hobz and I mentioned?


Pretty much what I said in my previous post I think we need to act more professional and hardcore in progression. I don't think it's possible to take the fun out of Twelve it will always be there so what's the harm in a little bit of hard work and discipline? I'm not talking mythic quality precision but just a bit more.
Sugarpuff
I would like to consider linking this thread during raid tonight. Either before if we're all around early enough or during a 5 min break so everyone has the opportunity to read what has been said and have their own say. I know not everyone is part of the Facebook group and not everyone our side reads the forums either.

Edit: I see Cailo has mentioned it again on the FB group but still no bites.
DigitalDJ
Matey wrote:
I'm not sure if this balance can exist anymore.


I completely disagree with that statement. I think the time we cleared up to Fel Lord in one day then used our second day to down Fel Lord for the first time and then take Xhul to about 10% is proof that the balance of fun / casual absolutely exists. We were putting out heads down killing bosses as well has having fun on TS. I am, of course, assuming that everyone that night had fun, and I'm not one to speak for everyone, but I personally think it was a pretty good success.
DigitalDJ
I think tonight worked out really well. If we can keep it going like that, things will be golden.

I would have loved to have seen another Iskar pull, but if people have to go...people have to go.

Only a couple of things I noticed...

- Need an addon to shame people that use the ring at the wrong time :) Was popped at the wrong time too often. Maybe we should organise that a little better. Briora usually does a good job of it.

- If we have more than 24 people, we really need to move TS servers. I'm happy to setup a server for Sunday and see how it goes for us.
cailo-
I invited Zed to the raid thinking we could take carries for farming raids but this was met with criticism because we were not to carry people any more. Then we carried that other warrior along who scored a bunch of gear.

Personally I'm fine with carries on farming bosses, should Zed been able to come along too?
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