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Hobz
I had a part to play in most of the drama last raid by suggesting different strats. Honestly, I think suggesting new ways of doing things, and being able to back it up with reasoning is a healthy thing to have going on in the raid. Im not here for hardcore prog, but I don't see the point in making bosses any harder than they need to be. If I still wanted hardcore prog I'd be wiping to M Manno 70 times a week with my old guild.

When I did suggest the different strats I wasn't rude or condescending, I explained where I was coming from as nicely as I could. However, if this is going to rock the boat I'll stop. Last thing the guild needs is another fracturing.
Hanlol
Hobz I know that I personally appreciate that you've done the bosses on a higher level and know the strats better than some of us. I agree that there's a bit of a problem with people being shut down when they suggest new things which needs to be worked on. I know you didn't mean to, but the way you said it seemed a little condescending, that's all.

My main issue last night (not with anyone specifically) was the shit that went on in guild chat during/afterwards which I didn't enjoy at all.

Edit: I'd also like to say that I think everyone should be able to suggest strats and new methods to try. I understand when we want to 'push on' but I don't think it's unreasonable to try something new after like 5 attempts of the same strat. Half the fun of WoW is learning new shit. I also think it would be good if we would be more flexible on what bosses we approach and when.

Even if it's once a month, I think it would be awesome to try some of the bosses out on Mythic! Especially the first few, and also a normal Man/Archi each week.
Hanlol
Did you even read my full post, rofl?

I don't think you should shut up at all, and I think that because you know some of the bosses better, you should be able to have your input. I'm just trying to let you know how it sounded on my end at least.
Hobz
I read your post and understood it. However, I dont think you read what I posted so Ill post it again.

When I did suggest the different strats I wasn't rude or condescending, I explained where I was coming from as nicely as I could.


So if I'm still coming off as condescending, I'll just can it. Not beating around the bush to make sure noones feelings get hurt. Rofl.
cailo-
I regard Hobz as one of my favourite people around here so I'll put guild first and all but I want to try to make everyone like him as much as I do.

We had another guy helping us in raiding a few weeks ago. He is a mythic raider and he invited his raid leader to help too. It sounds like a good idea but it isn't the direction we want to go in because of the different mentality required between mythic raiding and fun heroic raiding, it just took the fun out of the raid for us.

I think some people might of made an association between Hobz and the other guy and his raid leader. Hobz is new to our raids, has stated he is prepared to make the adjustment, he cares about Twelve, not all of you know him very well and I don't have any doubt he will be an asset to us in the future. I think there is an adjustment that needs to be made for someone who is coming from mythic raiding back into our raids and this takes time for everyone.

Twelve is for the veterans of Twelve of all eras and I want everyone to feel welcome here. I've seen most of these eras and I have made friends in all of them and I want to give anyone who wants to come back every chance possible.
Hobz
I appreciate it Cailo, I'll make sure to enjoy the conversation and the company, but I'll be steering well away from the strat discussions unless I'm asked for input.
DigitalDJ
Hobz wrote:
I appreciate it Cailo, I'll make sure to enjoy the conversation and the company, but I'll be steering well away from the strat discussions unless I'm asked for input.


I really hope you don't. For the sake of wiping on stupid shit.

cailo- wrote:
We had another guy helping us in raiding a few weeks ago. He is a mythic raider and he invited his raid leader to help too. It sounds like a good idea but it isn't the direction we want to go in because of the different mentality required between mythic raiding and fun heroic raiding, it just took the fun out of the raid for us..


Personally, I think it was completely different. When Aura joined us it was very clear there was an elitist and condescending attitude attached to everything he said, even if behind that attitude was someone that did seem to want to help. However, his help was to re-write our strategies from scratch to fit the Mythic counterpart, and that takes the fun out of it. Even if it is the correct strategy, it requires wiping and re-co-ordination on a boss that we've already deemed "farm". That isn't fun for a more casual raid.

In contrast, Hobz's advice wasn't to re-write our strategy, it was to slightly adjust to make things easier. At first, it wasn't even remotely elitist or condescending, it was only after each valid point Hobz made was countered with a "yeah but..." style attitude, things naturally escalated to a frustrated tone, if anything.

I get it, we should stick to the strategies we have as much as possible....that's what we've practiced, but when there's something very obvious happening that needs to be called out or slightly adjusted, it shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. Entire strategy changes, sure, minor tweaks, maybe not...

Again, just IMO.
Last edited by DigitalDJ on Mar 1st, 2016, 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cailo-
We're a diplomacy which ever way you like to go guys its fine. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

Constructive discussion like what is going on here will make us stronger because everyone will learn from this and we will act different for it. The question is have we learned from this forum or is the time to act now?
Sugarpuff
TLDR(iwrotemorethandigi): Need ways to improve upon issues as opposed to just complaining.

As our raid group grows, so do our personalities so to speak. Everyone has a different opinion on what is right and wrong, what is fun, and how things should be done.
I appreciate all the effort on both parts.

Rose is trying her best to raid lead, and it’s always stressful controlling 30 people and making sure everything is done correctly.

With that being said, Digi has covered pretty much everything I feel needed to be brought up, and Han has summed it up.

I would however like to touch on some things mentioned (and I apologize as this may be repetitive in the sense that things have already been said) because while we have the issues pointed out we don’t have many solutions offered and I would like to hear what people consider is the way forward when it comes to improving problems.

I find myself always saying you can’t please all the people all the time, and this runs true with the issues currently going on. It comes down to how it is dealt with and that is where the difference will be made.

To begin with, downtime is becoming a joke. I’ve made comments on this very often. We raid 2 nights and of those 2 nights so much time is wasted. Unavoidable things are irrelevant here. It’s more so literally standing around waiting for nothing. There is so much time spent having gossip session going on about unrelated things. If we put as much effort into our problems with wipes and discussions about what we’re doing, as we do with Windows 10 updates I’m sure progressing would be a lot more efficient.

More so on this I’d like to mention some etiquette. Raid starts at 8pm. To me this means we are all in the instance and ready to pull at 8pm. If we could just get together a little earlier, 15 or even 10 minutes earlier this would help a lot. Obviously not everyone can do that but at least for the people who are online we can start clearing trash or whatever. Please come prepared. Have your Seals, food, pots, flasks, runes etc.

I would also like Rose to link videos or write up short strats of how she wishes for us to attempt bosses so that we may read up and be ready to go instead of spending 40 mins explaining things before a fight. We raid 2 nights so that leaves plenty of other days to spend 10 minutes informing ourselves of how things are to be done and allows a quick breakdown before a pull to make sure everyone is on the same page. These can be posted in GMOTD.

I would appreciate some after raid discussion, a debrief if you’d prefer, whether it is on our forums or the Facebook group. This is where input can also be offered from other people.

I do not want to be the fun police but the term fun is relative. (I’m well aware we’re not a hardcore guild but we are still there with the same purpose).

Spending time with your mates slaying some dragons is fun. Not slaying the same dragon for hours isn’t fun. Constantly wiping is how we burn out. Doing the same thing for hours doesn’t always make a person better at it (take note at how we were successful after Han suggested a break on Iskar). It becomes dull. We get tired, bored etc. Mistakes happen more frequently. I am very disappointed with how things were said when most people wanted to take a break from Iskar and make attempts on Xhul. This suggestion was straight up shut down in a way I found very rude, even if this was not intended.

I am also disappointed with the way suggestions are handled in general. It’s completely discouraged and this is not how a raid should be. Everyone should be allowed to offer input if they see a way that things could be improved.

I can straight away see where an issue could arise where the lack of variety and openness in strats can become a problem. If we go to attempt Fel Lord and we don’t have all our mages, we now have to find other people to learn how to block waves and once again it becomes a learning curve. This strat could be avoided. Just because it is thought that people can’t pay attention does not mean that they shouldn’t learn.

On that note of people needing to learn things, we need to adapt to what is happening a lot quicker.

We can’t always rely on specific people because things happen. Be it someone dies in the middle of a fight or someone just can’t make a raid. We need to have other people prepared to fill in whatever role is necessary in whatever particular situation. An example of this would be Enesis offering to assist the mages on Fel Lord when mechanics didn’t abide by the strat.

Xhul was rather messy (I personally like nothing more than things being a massive cluster fuck and somehow it turns out successful). We had so much fire. Fire everywhere. The floor was lava. We only have one person clearing fire – Zug (Hooray). Zug died. But nobody picked up where he left off. Druids are capable of this.

I’m also a huge believer in the Archimonde dream. I’d love some ring upgrades and as it has been said trinkets are very nice too. I feel like this would be very beneficial. Wednesday would be most appropriate because this allows us to knock it out, grab upgrades then smash out our farm bosses and hopefully get through faster and potentially allow us to have some time on progression, thus making Sunday the day of “lots of us got some upgrades maybe we’ll do better”.

This may have been a once off but there was a slight hiccup with loot. A tier piece going to someone who randomly snuck in (Dragnat why you do dis) who will likely not raid with us again was a mistake.

It might also be worth offering up loot to people who may not want to tank/heal/dps right now but would definitely consider a respec if we needed it, instead of DEing stuff.

As Digi said
DigitalDJ wrote:
- At least from what I remember back in the BC days, we used to call people out on fucking up. I'm not for berating people and telling them that they are fucking useless . That's not what we used to do (unless it was jokingly, of course). We used to help that person understand the mechanic, or do their rotation better, or whatever the hell it was that needed improvement. Now however, we sit around saying "everyone" needs to do this, "everyone" needs to do that. That doesn't help the person who probably doesn't even know they fucked up. If we have raiders on progression that aren't pulling the DPS/Heals/Avoidance that they should, then we should be helping them...not just ignoring it. It doesn't need to be abusive or demeaning to that person, they just need a push in the right direction.


Call out people on mistakes, but also own up to your own ones.

I can’t walk around mini bosses, only into them. I get hit by blitz. I fucked up on Archimonde the other night. My positioning was crap. I died, I dragged fire through everyone. It was bad. I’m an idiot.

With everything I have said this is not a personal attack on anyone but rather issues I feel we could work on. I have done everything I’ve mentioned at some stage. I’m equally at fault. We all need to make improvements.

Completely avoiding what would be considered confrontation because of the way things are handled is not the way to go.

Inclusion not exclusion.
Hanlol
Great post Sugar! I, probably unsurprisingly, agree with everything you have said!

With trying other bosses, maybe we could have a 'cap' on attempts before we try something else? Like 6-ish attempts on the boss, and unless we're really really close, we could do a ready check to see who wants to move on to something else.

Like Sugar, and MANY other people have said, we should be doing Normal archi each week. Really we could get perfect at clearing him on normal, which hopefully will prepare us for the cluster fuck that Heroic will be.

I also think that sometimes people just want to try something totally different, so many once a week we could spend 30 mins on a mythic boss.

I'm sure everyone will agree that attempting one boss for 2.5 hours is so fucking boring. I want to progress, but not at the expense of fun.

I definitely think we need to be more on top of our time schedule as well. I really think we should be pulling at 8/8:10 on the dot, and unless we 100% can't do the raid without them, then people who are late will just have to miss out on whatever we're doing for the moment.

Anyways I'm probably just re-repeating but it feels good to get it all out.
DigitalDJ
I completely agree with Suga. Solutions are definitely needed, but I feel sometimes the solutions end up in promoting a more "strict" (read: HARDXCORE) raid environment...which can be easy to dismiss if we want a "casual" raid environment. Hopefully we can have some discussion and implement some of the suggestions in this thread...

Some things to consider...maybe.…(also basically being repetitive / re-enforcing)

Stricter start times, pull times and cracking down on idle time / really-really-off-topic delaying discussion just need to be dealt with proactively in the raid.

I think promoting strategy videos and encouraging people to watch them and ask questions about potential issues is a great idea, so we can spend less time explaining strategies. I would hope that this also gets people filling roles of people that we rely on too much in specific strategies.

If people own up to their own mistakes, it can help others also understand what is happening the fight. Again, Recap feature :). I don't think anyone expects you to execute the strat perfectly and you shouldn't be chastised for messing up.

I agree with N Archi but I wonder if we need to limit our attempts (in case of too many wipes -- I hope this wouldn't be the case), so that we can get back to doing heroic bosses and get a balance.

I think that's where Suga's idea of the ready check voting is a good idea, so that we don't become too demoralized from wiping on a boss for hours on end...You really do start to notice that DPS decreases after people get tired and frustrated...it just goes down hill.

I think there was also discussion of limiting assists on the raid (at least once the raid has started) so we don't get people sneaking in again, right?

It would be good to use something like oRA to make sure people are using the consumables...runes, flasks and at least +100 food shouldn't be a problem. Maybe one of those addons that spam chat during a ready check with missing buffs. I think a lot of the reason people don't use their consumables is simply because they forget they drop off. Dropping those Savage Feasts aren't necessarily a bad thing.……. :)
Sugarpuff
I hope we can get more people on board with discussions. We are two different guilds and it would be great to get some insight into how our other half feels.

Hanlol wrote:
Anyways I'm probably just re-repeating but it feels good to get it all out.

This is pretty much how I felt while composing my post. I wanted to elaborate more without saying exactly what was already said but so be it. Felt good to type lots of words.

Hanlol wrote:
I also think that sometimes people just want to try something totally different, so many once a week we could spend 30 mins on a mythic boss.

With this I think instead of just jumping into a new tier we should consider working on bosses on our current level. We have yet to see Tyrant Velhari at all. Heading into a mythic raid would require all the trash clearing at the beginning again as well, taking up a lot of time :(.

I admire Hans optimism and the fact that she is constantly trying to find ways to keep things interesting so that we don’t burn out and get to experience the most out of where we're at.

DigitalDJ wrote:
I completely agree with Suga. Solutions are definitely needed, but I feel sometimes the solutions end up in promoting a more "strict" (read: HARDXCORE) raid environment...which can be easy to dismiss if we want a "casual" raid environment. Hopefully we can have some discussion and implement some of the suggestions in this thread...

I guess this is where interpretation comes into play. Wanting to tighten up on some things doesn’t mean we’re enforcing strict rules on anyone. I feel as though it’s more of wanting to streamline a process that is currently problematic.

I don’t agree with Hobz basically saying he’ll just avoid giving input (in so many words) because this isn’t productive. Hobz should be allowed to give input – as everyone should. I don’t think he was intentionally being condescending; instead he was very straight forward and sometimes this is hard to interpret. Avoiding things/retracting yourself from them isn’t a solution.)

Once again I feel like a lot of things could also be communicated on an outside medium such as forums/Facebook/have a discussion AFTER raid on TS with people that remain.

DigitalDJ wrote:
I agree with N Archi but I wonder if we need to limit our attempts (in case of too many wipes -- I hope this wouldn't be the case), so that we can get back to doing heroic bosses and get a balance.

This is a great idea. We don’t want to take away from what we need to be doing but we shouldn’t completely skip it if it is very beneficial.

DigitalDJ wrote:
I think that's where Suga's idea of the ready check voting is a good idea, so that we don't become too demoralized from wiping on a boss for hours on end

Full credit to Han for this one ;). Literally nothing more to say other than this is a great suggestion.


At the end of the day I don't think anyone meant to insult anyone or cause any problems. It's just something that happens over time and eventually small things add up and need to be discussed. As we all progress, slay dragons, gear up, spend hours with each other, heads will bump and that's fine. It's better to voice concerns now than having people stop showing up because they feel as though we have a hostile environment.
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