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cailo-
In the past few weeks we have had a rapid revival and its absolutely freaking amazing, it's, now its common to see 20+ people online. We couldn't of done it with out our loyal members who do it for the love we have for our guild and our passion to keep it a force. Well done everyone ***APPLAUD!***.



Anyway along with rapid expansion comes some minor teething problems and they showed up at last nights raid. Some people got upset and some people even got harassed. This is in contrary to the way we want to be and the direction we want to go. The direction we want to go in is fun and some things that happened last night were not fun.

For starters I want to commend our amazing raid leader Rose from Exit Strategy. She is doing an excellent job as raid leader and quite honestly our revival may not of even happened so rapidly if it wasn't for her efforts. She is not a Twelve person though and she could just say at any time, "Hey screw all you Twelve people we are just going to raid by our selves again now", but she hasn't and for now she is sticking with it. My admiration for Rose is as high as you can give to someone in a video game community and I my self thank her for her efforts.

Yes there were dramas last night but there is nothing that can't be easily fixed by carefully consider some absolute basics.
- We are a heroic raiding guild with an aim to have fun > progression. It's important to keep that in mind.
- We're trying to have fun here. You might have an opinion, you might be right, just express it the right way or else we will not be having fun. When ever you say something consider to your self if this opinion in the best interest to Twelve as a whole and in the long term.
- I understand its a difficult balance for Rose to be flexible and to be assertive if she really thinks her opinion is right. Either way, just be nice to her she is trying her best.
- Never forget Allysa's wise saying of PTFA (pay the fuck attention) and what it represents to Twelve. When the the opinion of the raid leader is final its business time so step up.
- If you have an issue speak to an officer. If one officer is unable to help or isn't helping, tell me. Yes I am not every vocal at raids but I don't want to be. My interest is the preservation of Twelve and Twelve values, and I want everyone to have a good time. If people are not having a good time I want to know about it. I can often be so tolerant to some of the things that go on I sometimes don't even notice. Once I have noticed I will try my best to make things better again such as writing this post.
- If we are not going in the direction you want to go in IT'S OK just find another guild or hobby that does things you want to do. Or you could arrange a mass gquit and form your own guild but we all know how those things turn out. So maybe consider that us guild leaders are doing the things we are doing because we know what we are doing, so you may as well stick with us and kick killer ass like we always do even if you might not like it some times. Twelve for life.

Anyway of all the issues last night the main issue seemed to be clashes of opinion. As a leader I understand it is IMPOSSIBLE to do everything that people say because everyone has a different opinion so having the one right solution is impossible. The key is compromise from leaders and members alike. Hey you might have an opinion that be right, but you need to express it correctly. If your opinion can't be expressed in the correct fashion maybe its better to say nothing at all. I think the wise dude Jeffrey Lebowski sums it up well.

Image

** And one more thing. As guild master there is one attitude I would like to change that has been a perception of the core of Twelve (or at least I am unsure if it was ever actually true). Keep shit stirring to a minimum of friendly banter and play nice with each other. I sick of changing abusive guild notes because it is making some people feel unwelcome. Lets make Twelve a friendly place to kill dragons and save the world of warcarft.



Thanks guys and peace please.
Hanlol
Completely agree with everything you've said Cailo. I think that the demographic of Twelve has changed a little, and everyone is a bit older and has less time on their hands. I know for a fact a lot of people want to just come on for an enjoyable raid and not have to stress too much. Although progressing is important, it's not as important as having an awesome time with good company.
Douggie
Hey mate its douggie here just so u all know im my sturing is ever to much tell me to shut up lol :) but yes thanks all of twelve with out u all im pretty sure exit strategy would be just looking for pugs the whole time
DigitalDJ
There were a lot of things I've been thinking, that I've never said, but came out in the last raid by other members (and I guess I hopped on board the train). I agree it was pretty toxic and it didn't have to be like that.

My current concerns are thus, in no particular order:

- We spend too much time fucking around, doing jack shit. I realise last raid's holdup was about handling a tank DC, but we could have considered a backup tank (Ene) a little faster and got in some practice attempts - esp since we seem to be pretty unreliable on Soc attempts. It wasn't Doug's fault.

- People are going AFK constantly. Right before pulls. Some things are unavoidable, but this is starting to get a little ridiculous. I remember hearing Suga suggesting the 5 minute break part way through the raid. I think that works well, but we need to tighten up on AFKs during the actual raid.

- Why are we carrying people on progression bosses? If we can't stable-ly kill a boss, it is progression. We shouldn't be carrying ilvl 700 PvP hunters. We shouldn't be carrying healers, DPS, tanks (whatever), through progression. Everyone should pull their weight. If a boss is on farm, then I am more than happy to bring in some carries as long as we don't spend attempts constantly wiping on a boss. That's the whole point of farm bosses....to gear up those that need it. I get it. We aren't a HARDCORE RAIDING GUILD, but if people aren't pulling their weight, especially if it's just because they haven't fully geared up (i.e. maybe below 713 ilvl? I don't know) yet...they shouldn't be on progression bosses.

- Also on the progression side of things, we seem to have a lot of turnover of people during progression raids. I like being inclusive and including as many people as possible. I don't really want to stop doing that but I think it is also holding us up: explaining strats, gearing up people. I guess beggars can't be choosers. If we don't have the same people every raid night, we can't do much about that.

- Waiting for pulls, whether it be the boss or trash, things should continue to move along. We sort of sit there, waiting for trash to be pulled while loot is being distributed. I don't know why. Why aren't we moving the raid along to get to the next boss? I find myself pulling trash on to tanks pretty often to try and keep the pace moving....I guess I'm just one of those jackass DPSers who thinks they are super-awesome (not really).

- Long discussions about useless and stupid topics are holding us up. I'm all for useless conversations about nothing. That's what Twelve raids were all about. We could talk total casual bullshit on TS but still churn through the raid and bosses without breaking a sweat...but that isn't what is happening now. We'll sit there in front of the boss....waiting for something....who knows really, until someone proactively does a ready check. (If I have to hear about how disabling Windows 10 updates is a fantastic idea, one more time, I think I might blow my brains out :( )

- If we are missing a tank, healer, whatever, we can always resort to group finder. I agree it should absolutely be a _last_ resort, but there seems to be this stigma that EVERYONE in group finder is bad. It's not true. You vet them. You vet their ilvl, achievements, progress, then you invite them (obviously). I mean these days you can pug H Archi pretty damn easily as long as you're picky about the participants.

- At least from what I remember back in the BC days, we used to call people out on fucking up. I'm not for berating people and telling them that they are fucking useless . That's not what we used to do (unless it was jokingly, of course). We used to help that person understand the mechanic, or do their rotation better, or whatever the hell it was that needed improvement. Now however, we sit around saying "everyone" needs to do this, "everyone" needs to do that. That doesn't help the person who probably doesn't even know they fucked up. If we have raiders on progression that aren't pulling the DPS/Heals/Avoidance that they should, then we should be helping them...not just ignoring it. It doesn't need to be abusive or demeaning to that person, they just need a push in the right direction.

- And on the above...if we keep dying around the same boss phase, we need to better investigate /why/ we are dying. Recap option in WoW is good for that. People should be reporting what they died to, if we keep dying over and over again... (an example I can think of is the Fel Raven on Iskar)

- Cailo's post mentions how being a raid leader is difficult and that obviously we can't just switch strats willy-nilly. I don't disagree, in fact, I agree. I know there's a balance to strike, and I'm sure that's difficult (I'm not raid leading, and I wouldn't want to for that reason), but it is pretty often that when people /do/ suggest genuine strats, they are taken with a "yeah but.…" type of attitude. Last raid, I didn't interpret Hobs as being being overly condescending and offered some pretty sane advice. After all, we still are struggling with Soc and Iskar, but again, it was sort of greeted with a barrage of "yeah but.…" defences of what we currently do. I can understand that sort of retort if the advice is overly condescending (*cough* Aura *cough*), but I think this was nothing like that.

- I said this ages ago, but a Normal Archi attempt before or after the raid would seriously be a good thing. It doesn't need to take up the raid time. We keep going on about an extra +25 secondary stat (the better food), but class trinkets and +3 ilvl to everyone in the raid is so much better than that. Hell, I've seen people not even using runes....and +50 primary stat is sure as shit better than +25 secondary.

Remember that night we cleared up to Fel Lord in one night? That was fun, right? That was tight. Can't we aim for that a little more?

Sorry, wall of text. I guess I'm just an asshole.
Last edited by DigitalDJ on Feb 29th, 2016, 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Magpie
DigitalDJ wrote:
There were a lot of things I've been thinking, that I've never said, but came out in the last raid by other members (and I guess I hopped on board the train). I agree it was pretty toxic and it didn't have to be like that.

My current concerns are thus, in no particular order:

- We spend too much time fucking around, doing jack shit. I realise last raid's holdup was about handling a tank DC, but we could have considered a backup tank (Ene) a little faster and got in some practice attempts - esp since we seem to be pretty unreliable on Soc attempts. It wasn't Doug's fault.

- People are going AFK constantly. Right before pulls. Some things are unavoidable, but this is starting to get a little ridiculous. I remember hearing Suga suggesting the 5 minute break part way through the raid. I think that works well, but we need to tighten up on AFKs during the actual raid.

- Why are we carrying people on progression bosses? If we can't stable-ly kill a boss, it is progression. We shouldn't be carrying ilvl 700 PvP hunters. We shouldn't be carrying healers, DPS, tanks (whatever), through progression. Everyone should pull their weight. If a boss is on farm, then I am more than happy to bring in some carries as long as we don't spend attempts constantly wiping on a boss. That's the whole point of farm bosses....to gear up those that need it. I get it. We aren't a HARDCORE RAIDING GUILD, but if people aren't pulling their weight, especially if it's just because they haven't fully geared up (i.e. maybe below 713 ilvl? I don't know) yet...they shouldn't be on progression bosses.

- Also on the progression side of things, we seem to have a lot of turnover of people during progression raids. I like being inclusive and including as many people as possible. I don't really want to stop doing that but I think it is also holding us up: explaining strats, gearing up people. I guess beggars can't be choosers. If we don't have the same people every raid night, we can't do much about that.

- Waiting for pulls, whether it be the boss or trash, things should continue to move along. We sort of sit there, waiting for trash to be pulled while loot is being distributed. I don't know why. Why aren't we moving the raid along to get to the next boss? I find myself pulling trash on to tanks pretty often to try and keep the pace moving....I guess I'm just one of those jackass DPSers who thinks they are super-awesome (not really).

- Long discussions about useless and stupid topics are holding us up. I'm all for useless conversations about nothing. That's what Twelve raids were all about. We could talk total casual bullshit on TS but still churn through the raid and bosses without breaking a sweat...but that isn't what is happening now. We'll sit there in front of the boss....waiting for something....who knows really, until someone proactively does a ready check. (If I have to hear about how disabling Windows 10 updates is a fantastic idea, one more time, I think I might blow my brains out :( )

- If we are missing a tank, healer, whatever, we can always resort to group finder. I agree it should absolutely be a _last_ resort, but there seems to be this stigma that EVERYONE in group finder is bad. It's not true. You vet them. You vet their ilvl, achievements, progress, then you invite them (obviously). I mean these days you can pug H Archi pretty damn easily as long as you're picky about the participants.

- At least from what I remember back in the BC days, we used to call people out on fucking up. I'm not for berating people and telling them that they are fucking useless . That's not what we used to do (unless it was jokingly, of course). We used to help that person understand the mechanic, or do their rotation better, or whatever the hell it was that needed improvement. Now however, we sit around saying "everyone" needs to do this, "everyone" needs to do that. That doesn't help the person who probably doesn't even know they fucked up. If we have raiders on progression that aren't pulling the DPS/Heals/Avoidance that they should, then we should be helping them...not just ignoring it. It doesn't need to be abusive or demeaning to that person, they just need a push in the right direction.

- And on the above...if we keep dying around the same boss phase, we need to better investigate /why/ we are dying. Recap option in WoW is good for that. People should be reporting what they died to, if we keep dying over and over again... (an example I can think of is the Fel Raven on Iskar)

- Cailo's post mentions how being a raid leader is difficult and that obviously we can't just switch strats willy-nilly. I don't disagree, in fact, I agree. I know there's a balance to strike, and I'm sure that's difficult (I'm not raid leading, and I wouldn't want to for that reason), but it is pretty often that when people /do/ suggest genuine strats, they are taken with a "yeah but.…" type of attitude. Last raid, I didn't interpret Hobs as being being overly condescending and offered some pretty sane advice. After all, we still are struggling with Soc and Iskar, but again, it was sort of greeted with a barrage of "yeah but.…" defences of what we currently do. I can understand that sort of retort if the advice is overly condescending (*cough* Aura *cough*), but I think this was nothing like that.

- I said this ages ago, but a Normal Archi attempt before or after the raid would seriously be a good thing. It doesn't need to take up the raid time. We keep going on about an extra +25 secondary stat (the better food), but class trinkets and +3 ilvl to everyone in the raid is so much better than that. Hell, I've seen people not even using runes....and +50 primary stat is sure as shit better than +25 secondary.

Remember that night we cleared up to Fel Lord in one night? That was fun, right? That was tight. Can't we aim for that a little more?

Sorry, wall of text. I guess I'm just an asshole.

Dig you should know better than to say "Sorry, wall of text. I guess I'm just an asshole." mate!
DigitalDJ
I guess I'm focusing on the negatives here. Twelve has definitely improved. There's no doubt about it. We went from zero to nearly filling a 30 person raid in just a couple of months. The people from Exit Strategy have helped us. They do a good job. The tanks, the healers, the DPS, raid leaders, their friends....but I've seen us be pretty inconsistent....and I've seen us do really good....we should aim for doing really good.

Taking what Han says, a little differently though....I think we are all older...we all have less time....let's have fun killing shit, and not stuffing around, while still jerking around and having good company on TS. I think there are really two parts to having fun - good company and good progression. We've seen how constant wipes can be pretty frustrating... I don't know what to say, they both effect each other. Just IMO.
Last edited by DigitalDJ on Feb 29th, 2016, 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hanlol
Worst quoting ever you giant noob Magpie!

Also Dig I totally get what you're saying as well. It doesn't have to be hardcore serious, but I would like to see the raids run a little more smoothly in terms of time, especially when we're only raiding for such a short time per week.
Beefyfife
lemme know if mspaint challenges start again
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