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Recent Guild Happenings

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Jinjitsu wrote:
Fork wrote:
Fun wrote:
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Do you blame us?

Some are saying that we're making Moss a villain, but all we're doing is going on the facts laid before us.

1) The blackmail to Cailo to try take over GM position
2) The last message and mass gquit without warning
3) The lack of communication to anyone else that could resolve issues during this time

What else are we supposed to think, honestly?

No, it doesn't all add up. As I've said before I do not understand how Moss could ever think it's a good idea to blackmail the GM of a guild with such a history and support system in place, it is the equivalent to suicide.

There must have been something that drove him to do this.

He might have just given up, might have gotten power hungry, might have had a psychotic break, might have had his account hacked, might have been possessed by sperm guzzling parasites for all we know.

All we know is what's laid out in front of us. It was a blatant attack on the guild, and is being treated as such.

Not only was it an attack on the guild, but it personally hurt a number of members too. The blindside, the "everything is ok" that went on prior. That hurts as much as the attack on the guild in my eyes, it's a betrayal of trust and respect.

That said, it is all still up in the air.

I am seriously hoping that we get some closure and hear from the man himself.

I don't want to think one of our own could do this without reason, and I would love to hear that reason.

Jin has really been on the only one to speak up for those who left us. Jin, have you had time to read my responses to your questions again? You threw wild accusations at the guild and it's management, and I answered each one diligently in detail. Now you've had time to calm down, were my answers adequate?

At work at the moment so can't really provide an adequate response.

Will have a closer look when I get home. Was fending off attacks from all directions so responses had to be frantic and I guess not as composed as I would have liked.

All good, and completely understandable mate. I thank you for having the courage to post at all.

Everyone must remember to not take everything said in this thread to heart too dearly. Most of it is blown up initial reactions to what looks like a betrayal, and are simply trying to defend what they love.
Jinjitsu
I will apologise for telling you old blokes to stay out of it but I won't apologise for defending my mate who has raid led this guild to many victories over the last few months.

He has his reasons and there is more to it. It's not my place to speak for him on this issue so I can't give you the closure you need.
Fork
Jinjitsu wrote:
I will apologise for telling you old blokes to stay out of it but I won't apologise for defending my mate who has raid led this guild to many victories over the last few months.

He has his reasons and there is more to it. It's not my place to speak for him on this issue so I can't give you the closure you need.

Again, completely understandable.

Though as I said, what more can be expected from us than reacting to what is laid before us?

I hoped there was more to it, and I hope we eventually hear it and can work through it.

The guild has gone through turmoil such as this (if not worse) before and will again, It's just part of guild life. You would be surprised at how many guild explosions, rebellions, hysteria or drama has been quelled in the past before it bubbled to the surface, simply due to people talking it out on the forums just like we are now.
Tristen
Matey wrote:
DigitalDJ wrote:

When I saw the wall of green text, I was disappointed that Moss would force people to choose between the community and raiding, especially when it felt Twelve was starting to build up some steam. It was further disappointing that people were so quick to jump ship. All of this without any sort of public guild-wide discussion. Realistically however, WoW is a game: some people play to raid, some people play for the community. C'est la vie.

Personally, I feel that organizing a mass g-quit was both a little disrespectful and childish, so kudos to Cailo for keeping his cool.


This is pretty much spot on.



This whole thing has taken it's toll on my enthusiasm for the game. I will admit that I'm pretty sad and disappointed in the way it's all gone down. I have been a member of the twelve guild and community for over 6 years. In that time have been a Core Raider under Remedial and Moss. I wasn't surprised with how many jumped ship, a lot of them didn't understand the guilds connection with the Twelve community - they just wanted purple loot. I can't help but take it all a bit personally. I was completely unaware of the mass gquit, although that is probably because it was well known that I would never jump ship.

In the end I feel like all the effort and time I put in to the raid group and the friendships I thought I had made have been stripped from me. People that I thought were my friends haven't really contacted me, and the information I've been given has been scarce. I have had an offer to join them - but why would I want to play with a bunch of people who do something like this?

I apologize to Moss and some of the other players who have read through this thread and been made villains. I'm sure in your minds your reasons were just and necessary. I hope you guys enjoy your new guild.


They value purple items that will be replaced in 2 months more than the 'friendships' you have formed. All people like that care about is themselves. They asked you to join them because they need you to help them get better loot and progress further in the game. The foundations Twelve were built upon are the exact opposite. Case in point, being drunk in a raid. Some of my best raiding/experiences with Twelve have been when members were drunk over vent in MC/BWL/AQ40. Imagine doing that now, you'd never get a look in.
Matey
I have come to my own conclusion of this topic and feel like I can explain it and summarize it in a logical manner.

The guild formerly consisted of a mix of people who were apart of the Twelve community and those who were either unaware or uninterested about the history of the guild and its ties to a greater community. By the time a rift occurred between these two groups it was too late to implement the guild members in to the Twelve community - they had already created a community among themselves. Misunderstanding and confusion occurred when the values between the two groups differed.

The gap between the two groups is evident in the attendees at the meet, where only 4 people who attended were currently playing the game (all either veterans or not in the guild).

The Twelve guild is unique in that it will always have ties to the Twelve community, even if the majority of the community don't play anymore. I can see how this could be frustrating to those who feel that a guild should be completely moderated by current players. There are no bad guys in this scenario. People just have different interests and those who weren't apart of the Twelve community have every right to go and create their own home. The only real issue for me is that way it was handled. A peaceful resolution could have had the same outcome, but reduced the segregation between the two groups. As I have mentioned, I feel sour towards those who have abandoned Twelve regardless of my understanding of their actions. That being said, I'm sure we would all agree that anyone who has left the Twelve guild is more than welcome to be apart of the Twelve community.

I hope that friendships made during the time we had together can be mended and continued. To those who have left: I personally hope that you all enjoy your new home and achieve the goals that you are striving for.

If the Twelve guild plans to continue recruiting for future endeavors, I'd hope that we learn from this experience and introduce fun and interesting ways to educate and involve members of the guild in to this fabulous community. Let's get more people from World of Warcraft to the meets so we can draw on their faces and watch them vomit.
Last edited by Matey on Dec 23rd, 2014, 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fork
Tristen wrote:
They value purple items that will be replaced in 2 months more than the 'friendships' you have formed. All people like that care about is themselves. They asked you to join them because they need you to help them get better loot and progress further in the game. The foundations Twelve were built upon are the exact opposite. Case in point, being drunk in a raid. Some of my best raiding/experiences with Twelve have been when members were drunk over vent in MC/BWL/AQ40. Imagine doing that now, you'd never get a look in.

Agree and disagree.

If the core raiding values of Twelve had changed from "have fun" to "serious business" - which is perfectly fine if everyone is on board - then rocking up to a raid drunk wouldn't be acceptable. They want results, you can get drunk doing dungeons with your mates or in a different casual raid, but rock up to the serious raid and be serious.

edit: Nice post Matey, the rift between WoW guild and Twelve Community definitely seems to exist and I hope this changes in the future.
Spoon
Matey wrote:
I have come to my own conclusion of this topic and feel like I can explain it and summarize it in a logical manner.

The guild formerly consisted of a mix of people who were apart of the Twelve community and those who were either unaware or uninterested about the history of the guild and its ties to a greater community. By the time a rift occurred between these two groups it was too late to implement the guild members in to the Twelve community - they had already created a community among themselves. Misunderstanding and confusion occurred when the values between the two groups differed.

The gap between the two groups is evident in the attendees at the meet, where only 4 people who attended were currently playing the game (all either veterans or not in the guild).

The Twelve guild is unique in that it will always have ties to the Twelve community, even if the majority of the community don't play anymore. I can see how this could be frustrating to those who feel that a guild should be completely moderated by current players. There are no bad guys in this scenario. People just have different interests and those who weren't apart of the Twelve community have every right to go and create their own home. The only real issue for me is that way it was handled. A peaceful resolution could have had the same outcome, but reduced the segregation between the two groups. As I have mentioned, I feel sour towards those who have abandoned Twelve regardless of my understanding of their actions. That being said, I'm sure we would all agree that anyone who has left the Twelve guild is more than welcome to be apart of the Twelve community.

I hope that friendships made during the time we had together can be mended and continued. To those who have left: I personally hope that you all enjoy your new home and achieve the goals that you are striving for.

If the Twelve guild plans to continue recruiting for future endeavors, I'd hope that we learn from this experience and introduce fun and interesting ways to educate and involve members of the guild in to this fabulous community. Let's get more people from World of Warcraft to the meets so we can draw on their faces and watch them vomit.


I believe this is the best and most accurate post in the whole thread.

Please do try to involve people from the WoW guild with the community much more! Get people onto the forums! Get them talking about current events, TV shows and their favourite drunken orgies!

Get them involved.
Fork
Spoon wrote:
Please do try to involve people from the WoW guild with the community much more! Get people onto the forums! Get them talking about current events, TV shows and their favourite drunken orgies!

Get them involved.

An additional benefit to this is that when they're part of the greater community, you know you have a member for life.

Instead of them running off with a mate or a new guild who can offer better purple pixels faster, they'll stick around because they're part of something bigger.
Jinjitsu
Tristen wrote:

They value purple items that will be replaced in 2 months more than the 'friendships' you have formed. All people like that care about is themselves. They asked you to join them because they need you to help them get better loot and progress further in the game. The foundations Twelve were built upon are the exact opposite. Case in point, being drunk in a raid. Some of my best raiding/experiences with Twelve have been when members were drunk over vent in MC/BWL/AQ40. Imagine doing that now, you'd never get a look in.



This is one of the most small minded things I have ever read. Al I care about is myself? Please. I actually made a post pretty much exactly like this in one of my first guilds when people left in an almost identical manner. I felt justified at the time. I was also 14 years old.

Grow up dickhead. If I wanted nothing but purple loot I why would i have kept the guild tag for almost 4 expansions and throughout many other games? I regret the damage this has caused to some of the friendships I have built but at the end of the day, more of my mates chose to leave and I have followed.

Only care about myself. What a fucking joke.
Shrewmkin
Hunterbob wrote:
It just got so civil, too.


Twelve drama summarised.

1 side posts their problem with Twelve
Twelve sides with the on who looks best with lack of details
A sole person explains the other side
Twelve gang bangs them
Some Twelvians feel guilty for gang banging before listening to the other side.
Topic becomes civil
Thread gets derailed with Gifs and random shit.
cailo-
Matey wrote:
If the Twelve guild plans to continue recruiting for future endeavors, I'd hope that we learn from this experience and introduce fun and interesting ways to educate and involve members of the guild in to this fabulous community. Let's get more people from World of Warcraft to the meets so we can draw on their faces and watch them vomit.


This one falls on me. It was a different time back when I first became GM, the Twelve guild had lost its sense of community. Tex as former GM just did what he could but the guild did loose touch with the community. As GM I had the opportunity to bring it back. Moss could of continued to raid on the other server he was we had the opportunity to re unite the guild again, and a lot of good people did come back.

Jinjitsu wrote:
Tristen wrote:

They value purple items that will be replaced in 2 months more than the 'friendships' you have formed. All people like that care about is themselves. They asked you to join them because they need you to help them get better loot and progress further in the game. The foundations Twelve were built upon are the exact opposite. Case in point, being drunk in a raid. Some of my best raiding/experiences with Twelve have been when members were drunk over vent in MC/BWL/AQ40. Imagine doing that now, you'd never get a look in.



This is one of the most small minded things I have ever read. Al I care about is myself? Please. I actually made a post pretty much exactly like this in one of my first guilds when people left in an almost identical manner. I felt justified at the time. I was also 14 years old.

Grow up dickhead. If I wanted nothing but purple loot I why would i have kept the guild tag for almost 4 expansions and throughout many other games? I regret the damage this has caused to some of the friendships I have built but at the end of the day, more of my mates chose to leave and I have followed.

Only care about myself. What a fucking joke.


I have to side with Jin on this except not so harshly because I understand my buddy Tristen meant it with the best intentions.

Towards the end I was hearing comments from a few community members that the officer positions were not in the hands of proper Twelve people, I think it was at this point that my alarm bells were starting to go off. Moss had mentioned to me 'to look to the future and not to the past and my rebuttal was, 'the past is still the present'. I set out to form some new guild officer positions and although I had ideas on who to appoint to these positions I knew that it would enrage Moss and I didn't want it to all fall apart. I had some good times with the new guys, Jin included. Twelve wow guild had formed its own community in its self and the raid leaders believed there was no need for a guy who represented the past to be GM any more, especially when he offers no input into raids and under performs. Moss was the boss of the new generation and that was final.

Matey wrote:
The Twelve guild is unique in that it will always have ties to the Twelve community, even if the majority of the community don't play anymore. I can see how this could be frustrating to those who feel that a guild should be completely moderated by current players. There are no bad guys in this scenario. People just have different interests and those who weren't apart of the Twelve community have every right to go and create their own home. The only real issue for me is that way it was handled. A peaceful resolution could have had the same outcome, but reduced the segregation between the two groups. As I have mentioned, I feel sour towards those who have abandoned Twelve regardless of my understanding of their actions. That being said, I'm sure we would all agree that anyone who has left the Twelve guild is more than welcome to be apart of the Twelve community.


I believe in the community and I was never going to back down. I didn't consider handing over the title to Moss for a milli second.
Spoon
Shrewmkin wrote:
Hunterbob wrote:
It just got so civil, too.


Twelve drama summarised.

1 side posts their problem with Twelve
Twelve sides with the on who looks best with lack of details
A sole person explains the other side
Twelve gang bangs them
Some Twelvians feel guilty for gang banging before listening to the other side.
Topic becomes civil
Thread gets derailed with Gifs and random shit.


Image
Fun
Shrewmkin wrote:
Hunterbob wrote:
It just got so civil, too.


Twelve drama summarised.

1 side posts their problem with Twelve
Twelve sides with the on who looks best with lack of details
A sole person explains the other side
Twelve gang bangs them
Some Twelvians feel guilty for gang banging before listening to the other side.
Topic becomes civil
Thread gets derailed with Gifs and random shit.


Image
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