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Recent Guild Happenings

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Hobz
-removed-
Last edited by Hobz on Dec 22nd, 2014, 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hobz
-removed-
Last edited by Hobz on Dec 22nd, 2014, 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Caes
If I'm being honest, I always found it weird there wasn't a literal figurehead character that had GM only to ensure there wasn't some unceremonious /gdisband. What exactly does the GM have that an RL needs, and is it really worth defending or is it purely symbolic? (out of the loop a fair bit, don't know how powerful GM / neutered RL is). I dunno, seems like such a bullshit reason to break up what seemed to be the most functioning raid group Twelve has had since Rem quit.

Like Hobz, can't say I'm surprised, kinda thought it would happen earlier to be honest. Since Rem quit, and the circumstances thereof, there's been a splinter between the raiding group and the rest which has never truly been reconciled. I can see where Moss comes from, as Twelve used to be certainly a 'raiding guild' if not only by virtue of its raiding prestige in previous expansions. It can be frustrating to accept that <Twelve>, at least, isn't the same kettle of fish it used to be, especially when you see the people you hear legendary raiding stories about logging on and just playing casually, whilst you are trying to build the raiding group you want.

There's no way Cailo would ever do something which wasn't in the best interest of the guild, which is why it makes perfect sense that he is the GM. It doesn't seem like overstepping to have the people who built the guild, the community and the forums getting involved in the running of one of those they may not be actively involved with currently. Kind of like landlord>tenant really, a bit bullshit to presume otherwise.

Moss, always thought you were a good guy and a great player, also seemed clued in. Naturally a bit arrogant and a bit of a cunt but then again, this guild was an amazing raiding guild and that sort of attitude seemed perfect when I was starting with the 25's. Hope you see the way you went about it kinda sucked, but if the goal was simply titular prestige then I hope you get that as Benevolent President of <Exilium>(?)

Bit shitty to see this but I'm not even 91 in game yet so whilst the wow guild is no longer raiding, I still lurk the forums and see this place bustling so I think the community itself is safe. Plus, Cailo is Cailo so no need to worry there.

Tschüss
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Jinjitsu wrote:
Do you deny that the "council" is no one but the cutlery crew and the old members?

The current GM would have the most weight, and a few advisors would be brought in to comment - past Guild Masters and Raid Leaders, The Cutlery, current officers and the like.

They're there to make sure that the GM hasn't been manipulated by a smooth talking fella, or given to someone unstable who will /gdisband when things don't go right, or to someone who isn't willing to acknowledge when they need to ask for help. Being a leader isn't easy and it isn't for anyone.

It's all about this process being fair, the opposite of what you seem to think.

If you don't believe that is in the best interests for everyone, I'd like to hear your better solution.

willy wrote:
What's wrong with just raiding and the raid leader during raid times has more authority than GM?

There are scenario's when I have more authority at work than my manager because that's my field of expertise.

Why couldn't moss just be raid leader and that's that?

In my mind that's how it should be for any serious raiding guild, and it sounded like Twelve was a serious raiding guild.

I've said it before in this thread, in a raid the RL has the near-ultimate power. As long as they wield that power fairly it should not be a problem. Outlining this was one of the posts that was going to go up today that probably would have fixed much of this.

The trouble seems to be the way they went about making this change. Instead of thinking "look I should be able to do this and that" and taking the problem to the table, asking how they can go about it, they just tried to muscle their way into the GM role through extortion.

If someone really wants what's best for the guild, they'll go through the proper channels to achieve it.

If they're unsure of the correct channels, all they need to do is ask.
Hobz
Jin you got Twelve as a whole wrong that's all I'm saying. Some of the most respectful people that you'll meet here, we play the cunt card, but we're never out to further some guild agenda. Unless that agenda is apply the best of the group knowledge to help other guildies make good calls in the tough decisions they're facing. And to try and ensure that everyone is treated equally as after all a guild role or title doesn't mean you're special or some sort of better person. I'm pretty sure the biggest things 12 would look for in a GM, is fairness, honesty, openness, communication skills, ability to communicate difficult things without offending people, someone that is happy to ask for help when they need it.

You know the same qualities as a good person, the same sort of qualities of someone you can say you could trust your wallet with while your back is turned.

Then it's the guilds job to make sure that person get all the support and help they need/ask for as they complete their role. And if they're fucking up, you tell them straight! The cutlery just acts if someone feels like the GM isn't treating them fairly. They're the last port of call, and always strive to do the best for the current guild situation (based on 10 years of everyone appreciating the job they do). Honestly the situation with Moss had he not been conniving with others for his own personal gain would have been an interesting discussion. Given how important Moss was to the guild when he was trusted he probably would have got all the leeway he needed and then some. But not the GM title, you gotta understand if there's no reason you don't do it, cause the motivation then becomes likely sinister, why would you want something that gives you no benefits to what you do? If your the type to brag about GM position, go get a bank alt, or even better grow up. I don't think Moss is this petty, which leads to start removing people Cailo didn't want you to, and that shouldn't probably be removed, start taking gear, blah. The simple fact moss doesn't see this counter argument is testament to his lack of intelligence or his betrayal.

I'll turn it into a question for you, dude walks up to you in the street and tells you a sob story to try and get you to lend him your mobile phone. You ask why? He points to a wrecked car, shows you his injuries and says listen if it makes you feel better i'll let you hold my license so you know who I am if I bail. There's some sensible reasons here, theres a need for a phone, guy is also willing to make compromises (bonus!), i'd lend this guy my phone. Same dude comes up with the same question a different day, "Can I use your phone?" you ask why? He can't provide a reasonable response, where is your head going? Someone unable to tell you why = suspect maliciousness, it's just common sense.

Like put on your non-biased hat for a bit and look at the situation, I know Moss wanted certain things to change, but you can't admit he handled this like a fucking gronk. Like this lack of care and respect is phenomenal.

You gotta remember the issue here isn't that everyone left, people come people go, you have an opinion, and i don't agree with it but I respect that you have ti and you may not be alone. So the whole everyone left thing is neither here nor there.

The issue is someone who people thought was intelligent and knew how to handle grievances and lead a raid, threw a fucking tantrum. You know when you don't buy a kid icecream but offer them a bag of chip as a compromise to show you care and do have their wants in mind. But instead the child knocks your offer to the ground and has a tanty that effects everyone negatively.

That's the issue.
Last edited by Hobz on Dec 22nd, 2014, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hobz
I took 50k cause when i left there was no raid group left, there was barely any twelve, this was when Cailo got GM. Which was after I passed on the opportunity (i can be a mean cunt and lose my temper in raid sometimes so I wasn't the right dude)

So bitch please if i was out to rob people i currently be the GM and sole member of 12 with an option to buy the guild off me for blowjobs.

I would have given it back if someone asked. Instead they assumed I was an asshole crook out to get them, and accused me like I was trying to keep it a secret.

So I thought hey wanna treat me like i'm an untrustworthy bastard why not.

That being said if Cailo needs it he can gladly take it, but keep in mind that all the gold we took, we earnt leading a raid where 2-3 people would leave every month, and we were constantly gearing and teaching all these new players. The. Most. Stressful. Time. Of. My. Wow. Experience. most of that old raid group is where I'm currently raiding so I didn't feel like I owed them anything they all bailed. It was basically Me Tex Jackie and Cailo that remain from that dark time. (Sorry if I left people out).

So yeh there was a little under 200k, tex and jackie went in one direction, I went in the other, we took 50k each and left about 30k in the bank for cailo in case anything ever happened, although i'm not sure about what was left as I got mailed the gold and an explanation, i'd moved on earlier to find another raid group. Hey we also left alts and an offer of help if someone wanted to take up lead.

So that's 30k more than the guys on the forum that wouldn't play when Tex was leading but alll hopped on board when Moss did. It'd all be in my head but i remember coming back to 12 on an alt a week later to find 12 raiding again with all these old school twelvians that we had asked to come support the raid tex was leading. Then the first thing that got put on me was I thieved gold. Was all just how it worked out but you could imagine leaving one week cause most of the people you asked to come help said they coultn't to walk back in the next day to find Moss leading a raid with some of those people in it. Now that i'm typing this out i'm beginning to honestly wonder if it was a play of his to ensure if he came he's get lead. Would have never crossed my mind till last night.
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Caes wrote:
Moss, always thought you were a good guy and a great player, also seemed clued in. Naturally a bit arrogant and a bit of a cunt but then again, this guild was an amazing raiding guild and that sort of attitude seemed perfect when I was starting with the 25's. Hope you see the way you went about it kinda sucked, but if the goal was simply titular prestige then I hope you get that as Benevolent President of <Exilium>(?)

Hobz wrote:
Like put on your non-biased hat for a bit and look at the situation, I know Moss wanted certain things to change, but you can't admit he handled this like a fucking gronk. Like this lack of care and respect is phenomenal.

You gotta remember the issue here isn't that everyone left, people come people go, you have an opinion, and i don't agree with it but I respect that you have ti and you may not be alone. So the whole everyone left thing is neither here nor there.

The issue is someone who people though was intelligent and knew how to handle grievances and lead a raid, threw a fucking tantrum. You know when you don't buy a kid icecream but offer them a bag of chip as a compromise to show you care and do have their wants in mind. But instead the child knocks your offer to the ground and has a tanty that effects everyone negatively.

That's the issue.

This is the part that baffles me the most.

Moss is clearly a competent Raid Leader, and intelligent bloke, he can articulate himself and put forward and argument. He's no stranger to Twelve, he knows how it all works.

It's beyond me why he put himself in an "all or nothing" situation, quite literally demanding the leadership being handed over because reasons.

He could have gotten a more hardcore raiding environment, more power in raids, more control in the guild, or almost anything else he desired with a little bit of communication. Better raiding in the guild is good for the guild, we would have backed him all the way!

But instead of asking for suggestions, a helping hand, guidance or advice, he decided to take matters in his own hand and make a play for power. We have support systems in place to stop hostile takeovers, and when he hit one of them and didn't get his way, he rallied his troops and left.

We get it. It wasn't nice, but we get it.

"In the game of Guild Masters, you win or gquit."
Flap
I take back my blame of Enesis and now blame Remedial. Him quitting is clearly the problem, that turkey must come back and fix this mess.
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