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Recent Guild Happenings

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kiral
I'm glad Moss didn't take control, as the shit he pulled proves that he has completely the wrong attitude to run the Twelve guild.

The guild has been around for 9 years, so anyone who has control over it has to respect the community which has been built around it. I personally wouldn't want someone to lead Twelve who has no interest in the Twelve community. I'd rather see Twelve WoW shut down, than have someone desecrate its name.
Hunterbob
Jin, if Moss wanted to take raiding more seriously, what was stopping him? Not being GM? Bah. He seems like he gathered a good raiding group regardless and could've pushed them if he wanted to. Why did he want to usurp the GM?

Also, we're making fun of the name, because it is, in all fairness kinda silly. Cool, but silly.
Shrewmkin
So yeahhhhh.

Moss I know you'd read this, but man you went about this wrong so badly... Like really badly... When I wanted change back in Cata with how Rem ran things and all the other drama I did make an initial QQ thread, but realised at a few days later it was the wrong way to go about it. The thread ended up been the Communications thread, which provided possible solutions to the problems and ways to go about it, but it was actually a more severe case then this petty shit. I was a raider, wanting better for the raids and more quality people in the raids, they were filtered in the recruitment posts and if they passed they got in.

Anyway back on Track, your initial post indicates you wanted to threaten to be GM which was stupid... Moss man, you had Raid leadership it's enough, you could even have asked Cailo to promote certain people to be of assistance to you for your raids like Ranged/Healer/Melee etc. Hell if you really wanted to ask Cailo to enable flask distribution for raids and ask if he could supply potions and Guild repairs, that shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure Cailo isn't that much of a jew in that area. If gold was an issue you could have organised on a Friday/Saturday for Mythic BOE runs for gold and ways to gear guildies for the raids. So many things and ways to resolve it. It really sounds like you didn't want to try any other options.

Was the problem also Loot Council/EPGP that was setup? What was the exact problem besides the vague "Cailo's Kim Jung Un". Exact details could have being brought forth so possible solutions can help this problem... If Cailo didn't want to raid or was getting annoyed by it, isn't it easier to just not invite Kim Jung Un to the raids?

I mean at one point, I said to Moss I just want to chill and raid without vent because I didn't want to deal with retarded shit (Mostly that dumb cunt Dwy and other dickheads who speak when they aren't supposed to). Moss understood that and let me, sure some of you other raiding noobs thinks it's a requirement, but there was a few of us who actually know how to play and can adjust perfectly fine and adapt without some random scrub telling us what to do.

Back to the problem at hand anyway. Moss didn't need GM, he had the necessary power and leadership for what he wanted, which was to raid. Feel free to post your say here Moss, it's actually better to hear your side as well. Instead of us only been able to form an opinion by that vague macro you posted before you Gquit.

Also a note, no random person will ever get GM of Twelve, one of the reasons is "They don't want some random person with a grudge /gdisbanding".
bladearts
Sucks losing a few guys though I echo the sentiment some others have been putting forward. The GM spot is more of a figurehead. You can get all the power you need to be a raid leader without ever taking over the head honcho spot. It's a non issue for the most part.

By leaving and taking manpower you're splitting the community and made a mountain out of a molehill.
Lickytung
Jinjitsu wrote:
Moss (and most of us) wanted it to be taken more seriously as we only raid for 2 nights a week. Most of the people who want to raid and raid to win have followed.


If Moss wanted it to be taken more seriously, isn't the forums the best place to discuss it?

As someone who has enjoyed raiding with twelve these last few weeks after returning, I've been unsure as to why there was nothing discussed in the forums about raid plans, commitment to a raid team, raiding roster, raider requirements, etc.

It just seems to me that there was an opportunity for leadership here, and that this opportunity has been missed, amidst a needles power struggle. None of this needed to happen.
Jinjitsu
Fork wrote:
I'd like to make it clear that myself or the others involved were merely providing Cailo with advice and a neutral standpoint on the matter - he made all of the decisions on his own accord.

We are a wealth of knowledge, experience and information and are here for anyone that needs us, be it a Guild Master, Raid Leader or the average member with a dilemma. We want what's best for the guild as a whole, but understand that each part of it is autonomous and will evolve by itself, and stay out of it when it's not our place.


"When I took on the GM I was asked to not give the GM to anyone with out the consent of our community. I followed through.' That sounds like more than just advice to me. You don't play this game anymore. Sorry but this is not your place.

Fork wrote:
Jinjitsu wrote:
I find it very predictable and entertaining the you are all painting moss as the bad guy and are playing the victim. Cailo was content to just chug along and any raiding success was a bonus. Moss (and most of us) wanted it to be taken more seriously as we only raid for 2 nights a week. Most of the people who want to raid and raid to win have followed.

I think the posts by Shaunz and Hobz above cover this much better than I could myself.


I wasn't online when Moss actually quit so I didn't see the whole dictator speech. Cailo didn't strike me as one either but I guess Moss had his reasons.

Fork wrote:
Jinjitsu wrote:
I think you are a top bloke Cailo. Nothing against you personally but shit like "I will not respec to kill this boss because it's too hard to manage another button" is not something the leader of a guild should say. This was the single moment that killed it for me in SoO. Not killing a boss because you didn't want to put in the extra effort? I am surprise we all didn't leave then and there.

That doesn't sound good enough to me either, to be honest. If you were worried about putting Cailo in his place, I'm surprised this didn't get escalated to myself, Spoon or Rem for advice - that's what we're here for.

One of the things we were discussing behind the scenes is that the Raid Leader has ultimate say in a raiding situation, as long as they're fair across the board. That would extend to also telling the GM to "man up or sub out". It seems a great deal of the apparent raiding issues could have been solved with some clearly defined rules and boundaries, which is again why it's a shame it came to this.


What would you guys have told Cailo to do? Would you have told him to stop raiding because he didn't make the cut? Would you have told him to step down as GM? At the end of the day, this is a raiding guild. Why have a GM that doesn't raid?

I appreciate that you guys want to be there to give the advice but you aren't there in the trenches with the raiders any more and having such a say in the direction of the guild doesn't really make sense.

Lickytung wrote:
Jinjitsu wrote:
Moss (and most of us) wanted it to be taken more seriously as we only raid for 2 nights a week. Most of the people who want to raid and raid to win have followed.


If Moss wanted it to be taken more seriously, isn't the forums the best place to discuss it?

As someone who has enjoyed raiding with twelve these last few weeks after returning, I've been unsure as to why there was nothing discussed in the forums about raid plans, commitment to a raid team, raiding roster, raider requirements, etc.

It just seems to me that there was an opportunity for leadership here, and that this opportunity has been missed, amidst a needles power struggle. None of this needed to happen.


Quite frankly, Moss didn't come to the forums because you all would have sided with Cailo anyways, regardless of what arguments were made on either side.


Edit: Hi Rem, life is ok - moved in with GF and have new job. Very little free time for stuff nowadays :(. You about yourself?
Melg
Jinjitsu wrote:
Fork wrote:
I'd like to make it clear that myself or the others involved were merely providing Cailo with advice and a neutral standpoint on the matter - he made all of the decisions on his own accord.

We are a wealth of knowledge, experience and information and are here for anyone that needs us, be it a Guild Master, Raid Leader or the average member with a dilemma. We want what's best for the guild as a whole, but understand that each part of it is autonomous and will evolve by itself, and stay out of it when it's not our place.


"When I took on the GM I was asked to not give the GM to anyone with out the consent of our community. I followed through.' That sounds like more than just advice to me. You don't play this game anymore. Sorry but this is not your place.


Simon and Luke started the guild and its community many years ago. They are free to have a say in whatever aspects they choose since without them it wouldnt exist in the first place. And for the record, nobody told Cailo he had to do whatever he did. Cailo seeked out people for advice because he was having a really hard time with how to manage this giant issue that you and Moss and your other groupies were perpetuating. The people Cailo spoke to offered their opinions and advice, what Cailo chose to do with that is up to him, as is his right as GM. Being asked not to give GM to just anyone without discussing it first seems like an excellent guideline to me. Imagine if that had happened, where would the guild be now? Probably disbanded quite a few tiers ago. Or have you forgotten how many times selfish people have split the guild in two by coaxing others to quit with them?

I find it so incredibly rich that you have come to the forums as Moss' fanboy and are basically blasting all of us for being upset it even came to this and backing the only person who seemed to think about Twelve WoW and the community before making any decisions. Trying to say we dont have a right to our opinions because a lot of us dont play WoW anymore or dont play within Twelve is a load of shit. We have all seen guild drama, and Simon was once GM dealing with his own drama experiences himself. Nowhere have any of us said that none of you are welcome in this community now that you have all chosen to follow Moss to <idiots r us>. All we can do is respect your decisions, even if we dont understand them. Although, after reading your posts Im starting to change my opinion on our open arm policy.

Moss made a dick move. If you care about the guild and cared about raiding, why rip it apart with bullshit drama and a mass exit. Its so contradictory, and the fact he still hasnt made a post here to man up and explain his side just proves how piss weak he is. Yeah, even if he did he probably wont change anyones mind at this point, but it would still be the right thing to do.

Anyone who is coming here and bagging Cailo for sticking to his guns and moving forward in a way that is best for Twelve in the long run, doesnt really know what it means to be part of Twelve in the first place. I would have expected more from you Jinjitsu, seeing as you have been part of Twelve WoW for quite a while now. Twelve has ALWAYS been about having fun, and if you slay some dragons at the same time great. You guys managed to build a more serious raiding group, thats excellent, but it will never overshadow any of the core values that make up Twelve, and it seems thats where all this has gotten confused. You dont need GM to Raid Lead, and you dont need to raid to be part of the guild, and that goes for any member including Cailo. All the people who have left clearly did not compute any of this.
Hunterbob
Firstly, I'm not trying to make you a bad guy, as you seem fairly abreast with the situation in general and I don't play any more.
Jinjitsu wrote:
You don't play this game anymore. Sorry but this is not your place.

But this is part of the reason Moss never would have been given GM. It is our place. The cutlery created Twelve of Frostmourne, which in turn created the forums, and they are still very active in the community, which is what we try to maintain: community.

Even though most of us are long gone from the game, we do still care for the guild and it's health. Granted some things don't get handled well, but it seems a lot of these things are because the forums aren't being used for discussion/strategies/morale/whatever as much as they could be.

Edit: Seylana beat me to this point, but is worth repeating.

Jinjitsu wrote:
Quite frankly, Moss didn't come to the forums because you all would have sided with Cailo anyways, regardless of what arguments were made on either side.

Probably. Handing over a legacy is a huge task and would be better handed to a part of the community. Bring the guild to the forums, get the community spirit going and see how much better it can be. Again, it's a shame Moss and a bunch of raiders left over an unnecessary spat. They all could've come to the meet and fought in a knock out style tournament for our amusement instead.
Last edited by Hunterbob on Dec 22nd, 2014, 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Texy
I feel as though Hobz is the one to blame for Moss and friends committing mass suicide, you should have been nicer to him man.

I am glad to see Cailo didn't give up his position, well done.

Now I shall return to the rock I crawled out from under, see you all next time something interesting happens.
Tristen
So instead of killing shit in a group with 'Twelve' above your head, those that left are going to be killing shit, in essentially the same group, with 'This is a fucking shit guild name' above your head ?

1. What's the point Jin ?
2. Wankers, your all wankers
























Boner.
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