Sign up

Recent Guild Happenings

no longer recent

cailo-
Dear Community

I writing to notify everyone that Moss has left Twelve. Recently he requested to become GM of Twelve guild on Frostmourne. I refused, he left.

When I took on the GM I was asked to not give the GM to anyone with out the consent of our community. I followed through.

I follow the guidelines as detailed in this post here. http://www.imtwelve.com/15171-welcome-to-the-new-twelve

As apart of some of those guidelines no prejudiced should be shown to anyone who decides to part Twelve to raid with other guilds. Moss's new guild is called Exilum. There are plenty of good Twelve people who have shifted to Exilum and I would encourage you to join them if you want to continue raiding.

As for Twelve guild on Frostmourne its self, we will continue to provide a place where people can hang out and have fun. I could make another crack at making it a social guild and I would also be interested in doing normal raids, but this is still TBA.

Thanks everyone and I hope to hear from many of you about your conquests in the future.
Fork
Hi all,

Over the last short while, it had become clear that it was not all be peachy in our little guild of derp. I heard whispers of this, or rumours of that, tales of hardships and woe. It wasn't all rainbows and butterflies dicking each other like it once was.

Moss wrote:
Hi, recently I petitioned Cailo for GM positoin of Twelve. I feel that over the past 15months I have proven myself to be a leader and would make a better GM for the guild in its current state and for its future as it continues to grow.
Cailo and I have discussed this at great length and has informed me he will 'never' surrender the GM position to anyone. In hope of fairness I proposed a democractic election to allow you, the members, the choose your GM. This was also refused.
He has naded me an ultimatum. Either A: I drop it (and accopt his position without further question) or B. to Leave. I do not wish to leave, and I have expressed this from the onset. However i will not abide a dictator.
It is with sadness that i now inforrm you that i will be leaving Twelve today and forming a new raidign guild where the values i hold of balance and progression meet. To those out there who wish to raid with me, I invite you to join me in Exilum.
*Naturalmoss has left the guild.*

Firstly I must say to those who followed Moss to his new guild, let it be known that there is no animosity between yourselves and Twelve. One of the recent shifts in Twelve was a change to the mindset so any Twelvian is not locked into the Twelve guilds.

Secondly you should have all the information, as Moss hasn't been completely forthcoming in his announcement above.

Cailo said that he would never surrender the GM position to Moss, not 'anyone'. He did this after much discussion with myself, Spoon, and a few other Twelvian Elders.

Guild matters and raiding are two important yet separate parts of the Twelve WoW guild. There was no fundamental advantage to giving Moss the GM title. Raid Leader is a prestigious title of authority, and that has always been enough in the past. Yes there are the exceptional outlying case such as Remedial, but we all know that downie is a touch special.

Cailo represents the core guild values, and Moss represented the raiding matters. They were the Yin and Yang of Twelve, and handing over GM would have disrupted this balance.

It saddens me that it came to a mass gquit.

It saddens me deeply that the individual who instigated it called himself a Twelvian.

It saddens me the most that they felt they were so entitled and power hungry that they needed to cause a rift in the guild they apparently loved.

To those in Exilum, all the best in your raiding endeavours. If you wish to return to Twelve, or have an alt stay around you're more than welcome.
Spoon
I was also privy to the discussions about this issue and I know it weighed extremely heavily on Cailo's mind. Ultimately his decision was to ensure the WoW guild continued to hold true to the Twelve values and not to go in a direction that was seen to be too heavily and seriously focused on raiding to the point of excluding people and diminishing fun.

Hopefully all the players affected by these actions continue to enjoy the game in their respective guilds.
Remedial
Sadness

These sort of events sadly happen when you're trying to keep a big group of egos and people in general having fun.

But yeah Exilum is a silly name. I do wonder if all the names starting with Ex are from guilds that have split off from other guilds. A search for Exilum guild shows another guild doing the same thing in 2009 but I guess for opposite reasons as there sl
Fun
Does being GM actually do anything besides the title? I'm not too clear on all this faggotry, but why does it matter who the GM is if the raiding is happening and all that jazz?

Is there a reason why raiding couldn't occur within Twelve without having to make a splinter guild with an outrageously shit name?
Darkshaunz
As a former GM of several Twelve endeavours, I must say that the ultimatum message was indeed quite laughable.

The claim that Cailo is a dictator is both absurd and insulting, and is indicative of a lack of empathy. These are words spoken from an individual that wanted to justify a failed ultimatum, resulting in their inevitable exit from the community. The truth is, Moss probably already had designs on the GM spot for quite a while, and was just waiting for the right time to strike. He needed to cultivate a loyal and strong enough swing base in the Twelve membership before making his move. Anyone could tell that this ultimatum was designed to back Cailo into a corner, with the zeitgeist of "raiding priorities" used as primary ammunition. It is with pride that I see that Cailo has reached out to other members of the Twelve community for advice, and has made his stand based on logic, reason and importantly - a sense of Twelve WoW's future.

Frankly speaking, everything about what has transpired is essentially politically-driven. This entire spectacle was also part of a greater vision for himself and those closest to him, as he had probably already considered all other options before coming to the conclusion that satisfied his ambitions. That much is apparent to me. It would have been better, and more honest - if Moss just admitted in civility that he would not, and could not settle for anything less than the top spot. If he told Cailo, "Hey, I respect that you wish to continue leading Twelve, but I must go my own way etc.", then I think the tone of exit would have been one of respect and mutuality. Instead, Moss has chosen a tone of self-victimization and assumed prosecution, which is very entertaining from my perspective.

There's nobody here with an actual brain that believes that Cailo resembles anything close to a dictator.

Cailo, I just want to say that as someone who has known you for a very long time, you are the best person suited to lead Twelve WoW. Your sincere love, passion and compassion to members in the greater Twelve community is both admirable and inspirational. Take it from me when I say, I know how you feel when large numbers of your member base suddenly exits in this manner. It's not a good feeling, and I know deep down you feel partly responsible for that. Being a GM puts you in a position where you have to make difficult and long-range decisions. You are doing these things at your own pace and with your own brand of leadership.

To you Cailo, I say kudos. Not just from me, but from all of the old gang. You have our support!

To Exilum. Grats on making a guild with a worse name than XII. Seriously, I can't thank you enough for that one.
Hunterbob
Scumbag Moss proposes Twelve members decide GM, /quits before proposal goes public.

Not that he would have gotten it. I can only echo the points raised, that you don't need to hold both RL and GM to have a successful guild. I see it as a good separation of interests, and believe Cailo suits GM for avidly supporting Twelve.

It is sad to see this smoke and shadows game happen and lose what sounds like a good bunch of players. If Exillum (should've gone with Sexurmum) fails, it's good to see no grudges will be held from this side. New Twelve Order is good.
Melg
Its so sad its come to this and Im really dissappointed in the people who perpetuated this.

Dont let it get you down Cailo. You did the right thing in seeking help from the Elders and others and you represent everyones best interests. Twelve will continue just as it always has, albeit much more peacefully without people trying to cause problems.
kiral
It's always best to cut out all the cancer, rather than leaving little bits behind to fester away.

It seems like the majority of people who left the guild were people who had no interest in the community aspect of Twelve and didn't post on the forums? Nothing of value was lost?

Jinjitsu
Fork wrote:
Hi all,

Cailo said that he would never surrender the GM position to Moss, not 'anyone'. He did this after much discussion with myself, Spoon, and a few other Twelvian Elders.



Having authority over the forum and twelve community outside the guild is completely fair enough and nothing personal against you guys but having such a say in the wow guild, especially when quite frankly you have no more involvement is extremely selfish. Yes, the guild was created by you and yes, there is a legacy which I would find extreme difficult to let go of but this is a raiding guild. Logging on to "have fun and be casual" or whatever you guys are saying Cailo is maintaining is bullshit. If that was true, we wouldn't raid at all.

I find it very predictable and entertaining the you are all painting moss as the bad guy and are playing the victim. Cailo was content to just chug along and any raiding success was a bonus. Moss (and most of us) wanted it to be taken more seriously as we only raid for 2 nights a week. Most of the people who want to raid and raid to win have followed.

Trashing the guild name? LOL SO MATURE. Get off your high fucking horses.

I think you are a top bloke Cailo. Nothing against you personally but shit like "I will not respec to kill this boss because it's too hard to manage another button" is not something the leader of a guild should say. This was the single moment that killed it for me in SoO. Not killing a boss because you didn't want to put in the extra effort? I am surprise we all didn't leave then and there.

"Cutting out the cancer"?

LOL. This alone shows how much you people know.
Hobz
-removed-
Last edited by Hobz on Dec 22nd, 2014, 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fork
Jinjitsu wrote:
Fork wrote:
Cailo said that he would never surrender the GM position to Moss, not 'anyone'. He did this after much discussion with myself, Spoon, and a few other Twelvian Elders.

Having authority over the forum and twelve community outside the guild is completely fair enough and nothing personal against you guys but having such a say in the wow guild, especially when quite frankly you have no more involvement is extremely selfish. Yes, the guild was created by you and yes, there is a legacy which I would find extreme difficult to let go of but this is a raiding guild. Logging on to "have fun and be casual" or whatever you guys are saying Cailo is maintaining is bullshit. If that was true, we wouldn't raid at all.

I'd like to make it clear that myself or the others involved were merely providing Cailo with advice and a neutral standpoint on the matter - he made all of the decisions on his own accord.

We are a wealth of knowledge, experience and information and are here for anyone that needs us, be it a Guild Master, Raid Leader or the average member with a dilemma. We want what's best for the guild as a whole, but understand that each part of it is autonomous and will evolve by itself, and stay out of it when it's not our place.

Jinjitsu wrote:
I find it very predictable and entertaining the you are all painting moss as the bad guy and are playing the victim. Cailo was content to just chug along and any raiding success was a bonus. Moss (and most of us) wanted it to be taken more seriously as we only raid for 2 nights a week. Most of the people who want to raid and raid to win have followed.

I think the posts by Shaunz and Hobz above cover this much better than I could myself.

Jinjitsu wrote:
I think you are a top bloke Cailo. Nothing against you personally but shit like "I will not respec to kill this boss because it's too hard to manage another button" is not something the leader of a guild should say. This was the single moment that killed it for me in SoO. Not killing a boss because you didn't want to put in the extra effort? I am surprise we all didn't leave then and there.

That doesn't sound good enough to me either, to be honest. If you were worried about putting Cailo in his place, I'm surprised this didn't get escalated to myself, Spoon or Rem for advice - that's what we're here for.

One of the things we were discussing behind the scenes is that the Raid Leader has ultimate say in a raiding situation, as long as they're fair across the board. That would extend to also telling the GM to "man up or sub out". It seems a great deal of the apparent raiding issues could have been solved with some clearly defined rules and boundaries, which is again why it's a shame it came to this.
Remedial
Jinjitsu wrote:
Trashing the guild name?


Hi Jin!!

If it helps i'm sticking to trashing the new guilds name because that's literally all I know about, and I agree any smack talk about things I know nothing about is a waste of time.

I'm all for anyone doing what they need to to have fun in the game, but the new name just lacks panache.

How's life outside the game? I keep seeing facebook posts from Mr Lim and Mr Moss and then being sad that I can't come play more :(
Topic Locked